Curse

twicky_kid · Jul 18, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Anet tried to fulfill the needs of both, but failed and they know it. Hence Guild Wars 2. The problem is that all indications and evidence from GW1 support the idea that PvE is going to be massive in GW2, and PvP is going to placed on even more of a back seat than it already was. Anet can say whatever they want about PvP in GW2, but they still haven't acknowledged all the issues with PvP in GW1 yet. I still honestly do not think that Anet realizes the TRUE thing they did wrong. I think they are "fixing" something that PvP players didn't want fixed to begin with, and instead, have completely broken what could have been a legend without even realizing it.

And they don't realize it, because they will follow in the footsteps of WoW and get their money from the PvErs with the attraction of no monthly fee. All the magazines and articles will yell in joy that Guild Wars 2 is a massive success. All the while, none of them realizing that PvP in Guild Wars 1 could have been an incredible legend that lasted ages, that died because of a company that chased the cash and left the real dream in the dirt.

Sorry my post went on this long. I am really tired atm and it sounded epic at the time of the posting (though it may not be).

GW will be left in the dust as far as a competative game because of 1 reason: they will not license the the game to other sources for tournaments. The Championship Gaming Tournaments ARE the new wave with a lot of money and corporate sponsorship.

If GW wanted to be legendary they would get involved right now. In a few years they are going to be kicking themselves in the ass.

Bowstring Badass · Jul 18, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Guild Wars has never been terribly good at doing aftermarket support of its title. Frequent, even daily patching was one of their goals before release, and they never even came close to achieving it. All staff was needed to make the next chapter come out, and there weren't the people left over to clean up the problems with the previous one. Big problems were allowed to linger.

Like the elevation glitches? And not to mention the massive and retarded update on the 17th.

Phades · Jul 18, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

The Z axis problems are a pretty low level issue, that would likely require adjusting the game from the ground up in order to address properly. Every game i have played that possessed that style of a problem, the dev team simply ignored and tried to make fixes around in, by removing the possibilities of Z axis abuse in the level design process rather than correcting it within the game engine. It never seems to work completely though.

The patch for the 17th would be more along those lines of what he is refering towards, but naturally the new expansion is going to require some preperation patches in order to smooth over the transition to when it goes live. The fact that it is primarially a pve patch is largely irrellevant, as similar style changes occured when factions was about to be released and the battle islands were introduced.

Personally, i would encourage a little self restraint when reacting to that kind of patch while posessing the knowledge of what is going to occur in the future. However, it would be wise to note when and if any further signifigant balance and gameplay changes occur to pvp in future updates.

Riotgear · Jul 18, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Skill has never been greater than time spent in Guild Wars due to unlocks existing. Unlocks=Time. If you don't have unlocks, I don't care how skilled you are but you won't be able to compete with people of equal calibur. Not only that, but unlocks and additional content HIGHLY prevented newbs from entering PvP on any normal level. I have so many friends I wanted to get into this game so I could PvP with them, but I knew they would never buy 3 chapters and grind for skills in order to play.

Chapters are indeed a major block, and the fact that the barrier to entry for PvP sits north of $120 is an extremely significant deterrent to getting new players in.

But unlocks are, especially by comparison to a gear-based system like WoW, trivial. A full skill bar is 10k faction, assuming you don't have ANY of the pieces of it already. One shot of runes is about another 5k. A piece of equipment is 6k-ish. And it always goes down from there. So to make a COMPLETELY new template, you have to spend what, a touch over 20k? Yes, it's obviously a time sink, but I don't think I've felt the "grind" to get a character template working for more than a half-hour in months now, especially since I don't make a totally-new character every time I log on.

Regardless of how long it takes to get the unlocks, I'm going to guess that practically everyone in GvG and HA has already done whatever portion of that for the character they're currently running, hell, most people in RA probably have at this point. This isn't like WoW where NOBODY is really "maxed-out." For the vast majority of GW PvPers, skill > time because the time-dependent portion was ground out long ago. Especially now that PvE-unique items have been largely exterminated.

Lodurr · Jul 18, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

They pump out PvE grind content that people eat up (and even pay monthly for) while having a pathetic PvP game.

I have a very bad feeling that Anet is going to move in that direction. I'm not going to sit here and say I have hard evidence, but I just have a feeling given all the information I have right now.

I'm with you there. Tonight's update was 100% for PvE and I think that trend will continue.

Quote:

Skill has never been greater than time spent in Guild Wars due to unlocks existing. Unlocks=Time.

I disagree, the time needed to get the right 8 skills for a build is really nothing. Play some PvE, then grind RA for your elite skill: it might take a few hours. Weapons and rune unlocks would come in a few days.

Quote:

I have so many friends I wanted to get into this game so I could PvP with them, but I knew they would never buy 3 chapters and grind for skills in order to play.

That's a flaw inherent with their model.

Although if you think about it, what difference does it make that the chapters give you new skills? The giant PvE portion of the market will buy the new chapter anyway, assuming they liked the previous chapter and want to keep playing. Rather than release new PvP skills tied to a new chapter, they should just tie PvE-only skills to the chapter and either release the PvP skills for free, or don't introduce new skills at all. They'd get equivalent sales at least, because for all those PvPers that didn't buy the new chapter (and most PvPers also play PvE), there might be as many new players coming in to play PvP-only that would've otherwise been dissuaded by the steep price to be competitive.

Quote:

The two simply can't mix. You can't give excess new content and grind to most PvP players, and you can't simply make minor changes to most PvE players. Both communities require their own special needs in order to function.

PvE-only skills was a good idea imo. PvEers have fun with slightly imba skills, while PvPers truly suffer because of them. Now that they've started on this road, they should really deal the killing blow to the imbalance that remains in PvP because of what PvEers want, such as hexes which are a rotten, purely passive gameplay mechanic.

Quote:

Anet can say whatever they want about PvP in GW2, but they still haven't acknowledged all the issues with PvP in GW1 yet. I still honestly do not think that Anet realizes the TRUE thing they did wrong. I think they are "fixing" something that PvP players didn't want fixed to begin with, and instead, have completely broken what could have been a legend without even realizing it.

And they don't realize it, because they will follow in the footsteps of WoW and get their money from the PvErs with the attraction of no monthly fee. All the magazines and articles will yell in joy that Guild Wars 2 is a massive success. All the while, none of them realizing that PvP in Guild Wars 1 could have been an incredible legend that lasted ages, that died because of a company that chased the cash and left the real dream in the dirt.

QFT brother

Quote:

Sorry my post went on this long. I am really tired atm and it sounded epic at the time of the posting (though it may not be).

It was.

Riotgear · Jul 18, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

I'm with you there. Tonight's update was 100% for PvE and I think that trend will continue.

While I think that's going to be the case anyway, I don't think the recent update is much of an indicator of their treatment of PvP updates. It's quite possible that they have a skill update cooking but want to hold off its release until the expansion, given that the expansion is most likely being based on said modified skills, especially since there are 100 new PvP-usable skills coming.

shoogi · Jul 19, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

pve makes more money than pvp, anet realized that and u cant blame them for it. their goal, after all, is profit. gw is going in the path of being another copy of wow, where the only advantage over wow gonna be no monthly fee.
wow has defeated gw.

DreamWind · Jul 19, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

I think you guys could be underestimating the lack of UAX in this game. Of course for people like us who already have all the stuff unlocked, we don't really care. But it is still a big hassle for new players.

For me personally, I know there have been a lot of situations where me or my team couldn't play with newb players because they didn't have required skills or even standard weapons/runes. We would either give them a less than optimal build and be lacking (and probably rage later about it) or just not let them play. That is a big factor in people not getting into PvP...the difficulty of beginning.

Of course they could work a little bit for a skillbar...but what if they need/want to play something else? They need a whole new set of skills and weapons and runes and inscriptions and everything.

And I think the situation is just an addon for having to buy the chapters. With Gw:en coming out soon, every PvP player who wants to compete with any seriousness is going to have to buy it and unlock the skills. So thats the cost of the expansion plus the work to unlock stuff before we can play again. Maybe not alot for us, but for newbs it tends to get ridiculous. I haven't invited many of my friends to play this game because it would like $200 and many days and more of grind (with some of it probably in PvE which is another factor) in order to play properly.

Despozblehero · Jul 19, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

if they didnt "truly" balance the skills (last balance was a joke) since the reintroduction of 8v8 in HA cause they wanted to wait till GWEN came out id laugh... at least id understand it but id still laugh, lol like not wiping your ass cause you say to yourself "I'm going to take a shower tomorrow." rofl... Hell at least if this was their idea and they said something id know it was going to come EVENTUALLY...